The first thing you *really* need to understand Jon, is that what 'terrorists' (or *anybody* else for that matter) REALLY 'want' OR 'believe' is (ultimately) unknowable AND beside the damned point.

The only thing that REALLY matters to anybody (other than God) is what they DO.

Which brings me to the SECOND thing you *really* need to understand: ACTS of 'terror' which are NOT sponsored (or sanctioned) by STATES are simply CRIMES. And the people who commit those crimes, whatever their motives might (or might not) be, are simply criminals.

Bottom line? The "war" on terror is a(nother) POLITICAL gimmick.

Bottom line? The "war" on terror is a(nother) POLITICAL gimmick.

but then anyone who has some perspective already knows that. what's depressing is that so many people believe that you can wage war on a concept while UTILIZING THE SAME DAMN CONCEPT ON YOUR VICTIMS!

Again, I agree and am not being contradictory, but I have a somewhat parallel point. They're not remotely out to destroy *our* freedom. Like you said, we are a world away and they don't actually care what *our* lives, here in America, are like. However, I do think they are out to destroy what we would think of as the freedom--the little freedom, but freedom still--of their surrounding people. This is a simple extension of their main desire: tangible power. The power to make us change our lifestyles and reorder our society at their whim is not really tangible to them, just like our power to do that to other societies is not actually tangible to--nor even desired by--most of us. On the other hand, just as some right-wingers in America get a kick out of making women scramble to get a plan B prescription, I do think a lot of the AQ types really, really want to say, bring down Sharia law on the obnoxiously modern neighbors next door. And in some sense that is very worrisome to me, on multiple levels--the more nationalistic American in me wonders what the ripple effects of that will be, the more idealistic American/internationalist in me thinks that is shame, and the Indian and Bengali in me worried about just how "neighbors" are being defined.

Note, however, that this line of thinking still makes George10 seem pretty ridiculous, b/c the logical conclusion of my thinking implies at most an American interest in a worldwide *campaign* promoting secularism and democracy, rather than a war on terror, b/c the problem I'm worrying about is the motive, not the method.

This, btw, is what I hated about the last Batman movie--which had such promise despite using Katie Holmes.

P.S. Ted Bundy, for just one (ethnically 'neutral', irreligious, apolitical, noncommercial) example.

"The Stranger Beside Me"

Ann Rule
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0451203267/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-9634223-7246437?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

I do think they are out to destroy what we would think of as the freedom--the little freedom, but freedom still--of their surrounding people. This is a simple extension of their main desire: tangible power.

Definitely. But for people who actually do care about freedom in other places, the best thing to do is make your own country as free as possible. Certainly the good parts of America (e.g., the initial revolution, the civil rights movement) have been big inspirations and created big ripple effects around the world. I don't think it even requires a campaign—or at least not one led by politicians, who never have a genuine interest in anyone's freedom anywhere. Just the force of example is enough.

It would also help Jon, if 'decent' people here in the West would acknowledge (and accept) the FACT that the 'architects' of 'our war on terror' REALLY ARE, as you pointed out, out to (use fear) to dominate domestic US politics AS WELL AS to perpetuate has been called 'the National Security State' (what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex), to prop up the 'petro-dollar', to "seize the world's oil" AND to 'crush' ('Greater') Israel's 'foes' in the Middle East...

If we eliminated OSAMA (as with a bullet or a rope) there would absolutely no need to pychoanalize his motives or comprehend his future plans.

georgia10, not george10

Thanks, Mike Meyer, you have finally answered something I've wondered for years: why no one has written any psychoanalyses or descriptions of the motives of Hitler, Mussolini or for that matter John Brown. It's all because we eliminated them with a bullet or a rope.

I disagree. They do indeed want to destroy one of our freedoms, 'our' freedom to meddle in their affairs, that is. Or, at least, 'our' freedom to meddle in their affairs in behalf of their domestic enemies.

This freedom may be important to Georgia10 at Daily Kos for some reason, maybe she would even be willing to die for it, who knows.

Jon -

Just because I don't invite you to my parties doesn't mean you should be so snide.

If "evil is really, really boring," why the endless fascination with Hitler and the Nazis? It can't be just the Leni Riefenstahl-depicted aesthetics (parades, torchlights, great music, swell uniforms...). Evil fascinates, in part, because many want to touch it, get involved, taste it, break out of the cubicle life--but are afraid of the consequences.

I'd wondered why Daily Kos isn't on your blawgroll. Is it because Georgia10 and kos are short-sighted, centrist fools?

Or is it the simple bitterness that people like you and me have toward the fact that short-sighted, centrist fools tend to have a greater impact than we do? That's MY problem with 'em, and I've often wondered if the Left Bank of the blahgosphere shares that with me.

I'd wondered why Daily Kos isn't on your blawgroll. Is it because Georgia10 and kos are short-sighted, centrist fools?

Actually, I don't know enough about them to think they're short-sighted, centrist fools. But the reason I don't know much about the site as a whole is because it seems so tied to Democratic party politics, and the lack of critical distance depresses me and makes me not want to pay attention. That said, I think anything that politicizes anyone in a country as depoliticized as ours is good (as long as it's not politicizing them into out-and-out fascism). And I certainly respect them for doing a good job with that.

I have a question: what proportion of USians do you think believe the "leaders of the free world" propaganda? Or, as "Georgia10" put it, "the very thing that defines us as Americans: our freedom". From outside the U.S. (I'm in Canada) it seems the average American actually believes the United States is unique in the world; they enjoy freedoms *no one else* has. The French, for example, would never understand a concept like "liberty" and would never build a monument to it such as New York's Statue of Liberty. (Extreme irony intended). Freedom Fries Forever.

It seems to me most USians live in this bubble, which makes it quite easy for "standard-issue dipshits", as you put it, to pursue their standard-issue dipshittedness by putting the blame on The Evil Other Who Wants To Destroy Our Freedoms, be they Communist (old excuse) or Islamic Terrorist (new excuse). Unfortunately their standard-issue dipshittedness IS terrorism ("the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims" - look it up in the dictionary!).

Hedgehog:
Sure books are written about Hitler and Stalin that analize them. It's just entertainment now and not necessary. It just seems to me if I'm spyed on by sattelites, 7 flavors of spy agencies, and can't even write this comment with out NSA scrutney, then I must ask why OSAMA can't be found? 5 years now. He sends loveletters to the President regularly.

"but to cause a destruction of the very thing that defines us as Americans: our freedom."

Unfortunately, this country is full of people who make this kind of stupid comment. A little more concern for the rest of the World and a little less Nationalism is necessary.

Jon,

As one serial committer of errors to another, how many serial killers do you know? It's like my good friends at the church I used to attend who think homosexual people are evil. They don't realize that some of their friends are smarter and gayer than they are!

I'm not suggesting you or I know any serial killers, but we might. In fact, one of Ann Rule's books is about a serial killer who went to my high school.