I want to know more about the woman from Mobile, Alabama who questioned Kristol on how the Bush administration would respond if no WMD were found and the Iraqi people resisted the occupation. Shouldn't she get a medal, or something?

How can we find her? Run an ad in the Mobile papers?

Well I'll be wrapped around a telephone pole off the fast end of a ford f100, xyz called into that debate!

C-SPAN callers are the shit.

These two quotes sound ridiculous, but in fact they reflect the main premise of the neocon philosophy - that a strong and decisive US hegemony is good for the world, better than any possible alternative.

They present this argument in both moral and pragmatic terms. In moral terms (at least as far as I am concerned) it's obviously rubbish, but the pragmatic aspect needs to be addressed on its merits, rather than ridiculed, I think.

It's pragmatically addressed on the merits every day with every renewed failure. They pour in pretty steady. There's the argument to make that it'd serve better if public preferences had more influence over policy, but how to rectify the contradictions between empire and democracy is left as an exercise for the sucker.

A few dozen gentle steps back and mebby there'd be some merits to discuss. Sounds more far fetched the further ya look behind. On the other hand, I'd rather step in shit than smoke it.

The damage that it did to American psyche that resulted in marches spreading across Africa that resulted in famines and genocide that is still taking place here in the 21st century.

You know, if we had a PET scanner, maybe we could see the precise neural connections in that caller's brain between the Pentagon Papers, "marches spreading across Africa" and famine and genocide.

Otherwise, one can only say, "WTF?"

>> The morale that hit bottom in the service.

The guy has a point. Every time I go out and slaughter another 2 million people, man, I really hate it when my people don't cheer. You know, I have feelings, too.

You know, if we had a PET scanner, maybe we could see the precise neural connections in that caller's brain between the Pentagon Papers, "marches spreading across Africa" and famine and genocide.

Otherwise, one can only say, "WTF?"

I'm assuming the African domino theory of the 70s and 80s. Cubans in Angola, the red menace and proxy wars that resulted in Somalia, Rwanda, ANC, nationalism movements displacing white ownership, etc.

Sh*t, the 70s was when we tucked tail and ran, licking our wounds, while the creeping menace of communism spread it's shadow where the light of freedom dared...uh, not light, I guess. And the commies gloated and made inroads with People's Democratic Republics of Everywhere we neglected to exert a strong "training assistance" presence.

Thank goodness for Henry the K and that Timor thing, because can you imagine the suffering if we hadn't greenlighted that action? Well, the consequences, just make me shudder.

Guys like ANGRY MAN @ 24:10 give self-medication a bad name.
He got Chile, E. Timor and golpes galore. What's the BFD?
Sheesh, some people are never satisfied. They're all "Me. Me. Me."

P.S.
You're a hoot, Jonathan. You ought to call this place DailySchwarz.

"monkey hooting" a.k.a. duckspeak

‘There is a word in Newspeak,’ said Syme, ‘I don't know whether you know it: duckspeak, to quack like a duck. It is one of those interesting words that have two contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it is abuse, applied to someone you agree with, it is praise.’

http://www.orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/en_p_1

c.f. Lenin's (Scientific and) Political Correctness, so beloved of all disloyal to conservatism ( http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1906/may/26.htm ) and much of talk radio.

the pragmatic view is that we need a strongman bowing to the USA to keep the islamo fascist terror mongers in check etc. because well they hate our freedom to get oil.. well the latest pakistan elections show they rejected the religious extreme parties as well as the US puppets

How that for pragmatic? of course the power hungry idiots that we have elected here are too busy fanatasizing about saving the world like james bond.

I mean bush, hil and bam are not interested in making the trains run on time.. they want to feel good about doing good (John's Frodo power people) and if that means breaking a few eggs to make omletes then they have no problem. In fact, they like it when they play god around the globe..

Sam

Well, actually, it's maybe not the US military that runs the world. It's people like me. There are armies of people from American HQ-ed investment banks, consulting firms, and accounting firms that are transforming the BRIC economies and others at an astonishing pace. Raising income levels, alieviating poverty, increasing productive and energy efficiency, and bringing economic progress generally to billions of people. We're literally remaking the world, while you're jerking off about silly psuedo-concepts about "empire" etc etc. How's that working out for you? to use a loathsome pop expression.

@Tom,

nice video, but the one I saw has Ellsberg being disillusioned that the US does things for national interest at the expense of others and in contrast to our stated rhetoric -- and what is implicit in that rhetoric for Americans in general -- that we love the democratic ideal and would let it prosper even if it turned out that the consequences were against US national interests.

Huh?

You have to really, really cloistered, or more likely, profiting in some way from the "national interests", to conclude that we don't take an active role in shaping outcomes wherever we think they need shaping. Or trolling for amusement.

IOW, we "actively" don't listen to news and events that don't comport with our moral justifications with which we're invested.

So what would we prefer?

1. Democratic *Iran with goals and aspirations that suit their people and needs, or
2. Dictatorship/puppet regime that facilitates our needs and correspond to our **national interests, or
3. Better yet, a combination of the two so that the hand wouldn't be so clumsy in shaping the outcome, but heavily weighted towards our needs (Mubarek, Musharraf, Suharto)

Daniel Ellsberg is an adult and I have respect for him and his attitude, but it's dismaying that he has to say the equivalent of, "Well, I walked around with my head up my ass for years (because it felt comfortable there), before I discovered that my head was up my ass. Imagine my surprise at the discovery."

---
*Substitute any country that thinks it has national interests and a right to exercise those interests.
** and by our national interests, I mean the priorities set by business and economic dynasties.

"transforming the BRIC economies"

Haha, yeah. We send our armies to occupy the energy producing centers of the globe and it's a mere pseudo-concept, but invest in economies climbing out of - what'd the sachs paper call it, "a historical aberration" - and we're remaking the world!

Like nobody remembers what it looked like when the US took Russia's glorious reformation in hand 20 years ago. A few countries attend to their own business and it's all thanks to the glorious Americans riding their coattails.

Here I was beginnin' to think we had no influence over events whatsoever. Apparently we do, but only when it's a good investment climate established by an independent state, then all credit where credit is due.

Fuck that asshole at 24:10. Ellsberg didn't WRITE those papers.

Credit is due to the people of this world that work hard everyday, no matter what economic system they live under. They make everything possible. No economist worth his salt would deny this fact.

It's just too bad that those same people can't see how bad they're getting fucked by people that would literally shit themselves if they had to face their daily life.

BTW, I think I just heard another brick fall from the facade that is western "civilization". Go fuckin' figure....

Fuck that asshole at 24:10. Ellsberg didn't WRITE those papers.
Posted by Dan Coyle at February 20, 2008 03:25 PM

And no one died in consequence of their publication. Unlike th at Aug 11, 2001, PDB that announced to the assembled Busheviks the intentions of one Osama bin Laden to carry the fight to the sacred shores of the USofA, the Pentagon Papers really WERE 'historical' documents.

I run the world!

I spend my free time trolling at a small leftist blog.

I part now for good, leaving you to ponder this question. At age 84, God knows it has been on my mind for quite sometime. It's answer and meaning are one and the same and may not ever be adressed properly but I leave it to all who see it to answer it by and for themselves anyway.

Let's face it: We don't care about ourselves. We don't care about others. We hide from ourselves. We hide from our loved ones. We hide from strangers as if we were the only form of life on this planet. We care for and face only what our local warlords want us to... We differ from Iran or Uzbekistan how? I saw that difference in 1958. I don't see it anymore.

MAN'S LOVE has indeed grown cold.

Yeah,I have a globe on the desk in front of me,too,zzzzz.Unlike you,I know mine isn't actually the world.
Like the man said,your ubiquity here (really,man,the only ones devoting more time to the place than yourself are Jonathan and Bernard,and they run the place)kind of belies your delusion of being a mover and shaker.

It's really not fair of Angry Man to blame Ellsberg. Every wingnut knows the real culprit is flouridated water, which clouded Daniel's mind, corrupted his manly essence, and led him to commit genocide and famine.

It's people like me. There are armies of people from American HQ-ed investment banks, consulting firms, and accounting firms that are transforming the BRIC economies and others at an astonishing pace.

as a citizen of the 'I' in BRIC, you and your kind can safely fuck off from here and we'll be fine, you pompous cobag.

Here's a fun game.

Take any random American off the street and suggest to them that the "terrorists" don't hate our "freedoms" but that they actually hate us, and often with quite understandable and easily comprehended reasons.

Or suggest that we, as the only remaining superpower who enforces our will and desires through the threat of immediate violent retaliation, might be resented and disliked by the objects of our violent affections.

Give that a try and see what you get.

I was talking to a co-worker today about the price of gas and he opined that regardless of the price he went to a more expensive station rather than shop at Hugo Chavez's Citgo.

But, isn't it like a global market sez I? I mean, it all goes into the big pipeline that runs to our shores, right? Venezuelan oil isn't a different color, after all.

Sure he says, "but Chavez hates us".

Is there a reason he might hate us, I ask?

He furrowed his brow for a minute and looks and me and says (in complete un-ironic seriousness) "reason? what do you mean by reason"?

Hehe. Good times.

Dick's Cheney: You may mention that 'they all hate us' to your friend.

no, honey, they don't hate us for our freedoms. they hate us for our choices.

and that can be whichever "they" you like....

"as a citizen of the 'I' in BRIC, you and your kind can safely fuck off from here and we'll be fine, you pompous cobag."

well, in a generation, India has gone from being a rancid poverty stricken disease ridden cesspool with an ugly caste system to being, well, on its way to being a not so awful place. I think you should thank me. Actually, however, it's in the other countries where the benefits have been most pronounced.

On another note. I laughed my ass off when W was reelected. An idiot for a nation of idiots. Well, I will laugh my ass off again when St. Barak is elected. He's actually not much smarter, and probably nearly as incompetent. But it will hurt more because the expectations are so high : )

I spend my free time trolling at a small leftist blog.

your ubiquity here (really,man,the only ones devoting more time to the place than yourself are Jonathan and Bernard,and they run the place)kind of belies your delusion of being a mover and shaker.

Look, run down our friend zzzzz... all you want to, but is it too much to ask that you not do so in a way that calls into question the mighty power and world-shattering importance of ATR? There's nothing "small" about this blog, we are ALL "movers and shakers", and this IS the place where the world's most powerful come to trade the biggest of big ideas and business tips that can make you a millionaire overnight. In fact, I'm typing this now from my Gulfstream as I jet to Burkina Faso to close a really sweet deal on some conflict diamonds. Oops! You didn't hear that from me...

BTW, I think I just heard another brick fall from the facade that is western "civilization". Go fuckin' figure....

About "Western Civilization," Gandhi said it would be a good idea...

well, in a generation, India has gone from being a rancid poverty stricken disease ridden cesspool with an ugly caste system to being, well, on its way to being a not so awful place.

oh, i'm very sorry... all those farmers committing suicides must be sacrificing themselves to honour your dilligent work.

please spare me your patronization.

Funny you mention Burkina Faso and conflict diamonds. After my b-skool I travelled for a year, but I did send my resume to Ramzan Kadyrov, Pres of Chechnya and very bad-ass guy. I am quite certain I am the only Ivy MBA to consider moving to Grozny. I'd also consider arms trade in Africa, why not?

because you will make profits off of helping kill a bunch of innocent people and make the world a worse place because you were breathing air

I apologize for my impudence, Lord SteveB. I won't let it happen again.

StO:
You are forgiven. For that, you will receive one small conflict diamond and a cut of the profits from my Cambodian child sex-slavery ring.

Gotta go - I've got some black-market Mercedes to offload in Tblisi.

well, in a generation, India has gone from being a rancid poverty stricken disease ridden cesspool with an ugly caste system to being, well, on its way to being a not so awful place. I think you should thank me.

BWAHAHAHAHA!

What hilarious comedians you have here, Mr. Schwartz. This guy is taking credit for whatever improvement India has shown recently (try asking some actual Indians who are not named Lakshmi Mittal what they think about that), and is also implying that it is no longer rancid, poverty-stricken or disease-ridden.