Biden is a turd, but I just love that exchange. Thanks for posting it. It's almost novelistic in its flair.

Perhaps Biden needs to read this book, detailing exactly how "America is a force for good in the world."

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm#begin

Biden of course, is also known for his association with Leslie Gelb, and their presumptuous plan to carve Iraq up, ostensibly for the good of the Iraqis.

The views of Chris Hedges are pertinent here -

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080825_hedges_afghanistan_worsening/

He asserts that sending more Western troops to Afghanistan is pouring gasoline on a fire.

To me, this seems obvious.

Unfortunately, the good Americans who fought their way up from humble beginnings to become Senators, shining examples of American Dreamz (with a Z) who will be selected in Denver, and elected in November (let's hope), Obama-Biden!- seem not to understand this.

This seems unfortunate to me.

But as Steve Martin said, "Some people have a way with words.

Some.
Not.
Have.
Way."

So here's what Chris Hedges wrote:

>>We divert ourselves in our dotage and decline with images and slogans that perpetuate fantasies about our own invulnerability, our own might, our own goodness. We are preoccupied by national trivia games that pass for news, even as the wolf pants at our door. These illusions blind us. We cannot see ourselves as others see us. We do not know who we are.

“We had fed the heart on fantasies,” William Butler Yeats wrote, “the heart’s grown brutal from the fare.”

We are propelled forward not by logic or compassion or understanding but by fear. We have created and live in a world where violence is the primary form of communication. We have become the company we keep. Much of the world-certainly the Muslim world, one-fifth of the world’s population, most of whom are not Arab-sees us through the prism of Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. We are igniting the dispossessed, the majority of humanity who live on less than two dollars a day. And whoever takes the White House next January seems hellbent on fueling our self-immolation. [end of quote from Chris Hedges]

Who knows if it's good or bad?

Joe Biden gave a speech on October 30, 2003 at Will Marshall's Progressive Policy Institute, the think-tank of the DLC. He asked a question and responded: "Do we need to fashion a broad, integrated plan," the answer is a resounding, yes, we need to fashion a broad, integrated plan. That's exactly what I think this work offers: a comprehensive strategy to make us all more secure, consistent with our values and with this country's extraordinary potential. . .If we adopt the broad priorities set out in this paper, if we fashion a strategic approach to our security that's been recommended by these fine people here today, I think we can seize the opportunity before us and bring the world together in a way it hasn't been in over a hundred years.

The world was "together" a hundred years ago? Never mind. The plan Joe referred to was entitled: Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy

These are the main principles of this strategy:

* Democrats will maintain the world's most capable and technologically advanced military, and we will not flinch from using it to defend our interests anywhere in the world.

* Democrats believe that America should use its unparalleled power to defend our country and to shape a world in which the values of liberal democracy increasingly hold sway.

* We stand for equal and expanding opportunity at home and abroad. That is why we favor vibrant, entrepreneurial markets, open trade, and active governance to ensure honest competition.

* Democrats believe energetic U.S. leadership is integral to shaping a world congenial to our interests and values. World order doesn't emerge spontaneously; it must be organized through collective action by the leading powers, in particular the leading democracies.

Compare the Dem "Progressive Internationalism" principles to the principles of the neocon PNAC:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Just shut up and hope, folks.

I'm deadly serious. Hope for this reason: Our ruling class got it's ass fucking burnt with Iraq. People lost their phony ass jobs handing out federal government money and securing a bunch of income for themselves and their offspring. Yeah, they didn't quite get burnt bad enough they were willing to play chicken with Bush on defunding the thing, but Bush wasn't running again and he'd have starved the poor bastards to prove a point and that would have lost the democrats their phony ass jobs.

McCain is the last piece of life left in the Empire. Obama is not gonna say it, but we need someone to manage the end of the Empire without saying things that make your average American howl and scream. John McCain is a recipe for the end of the Earth. Read Russian military doctrine concerning the use of tactical nuclear strikes vs. American class weaponry in theatre. Obama has some pretty ruthless folks advising them but they know where the rubber meets the road regarding that matter. McCain has people how believe that this doctrine is simply a bunch of paper bullshitting like they do and they are 100% fucking wrong.

EM,
Shut up and go away. You make no sense and you're annoying.

Are you pissing around with me?

So Biden's gets irritated being publicly called an imperialist.
It must increase his heart rate and raise his blood pressure.
That's very useful information. Thanks.

Tom: Excellent idea, I wish I could think up a question that would explain things different to me but at this point I only have demands it seems and would probably sound rude.

Don Bacon: Looks like a fine piece of "whip and carrots" foreign policy which I, for one, can only come up with "good luck on that".

Mike: And note that the Dems, including Biden, are virtually indistinguishable from the neocons.

Don Bacon: I've yet to have the pleasure of learning about the Neocons world plan but I'm sure it lacks nary a drop of the "purity of essence" and matches the dems as their equal. (the Dr. Strangelove is in)

"Just shut up and hope, folks."
"I'm deadly serious. Hope for this reason: Our ruling class got it's ass fucking burnt with Iraq."
All of the ruling class did, through the devaluation of their assets in the US and oil shortages. But the action was driven by a particular part of that class that had become dominant. That part has lost influence, and probably some funding, but there is enough money still controlled by the nutcases that aristocracy produces that they will continue to be funded.

"People lost their phony ass jobs handing out federal government money and securing a bunch of income for themselves and their offspring."
Which people? And who are the handouts for? The majority of federal money is for the military and has been since the cold war started.

"Yeah, they didn't quite get burnt bad enough they were willing to play chicken with Bush on defunding the thing,"
They receive funding that makes that decision easier. I don't think Dems got burned by it at all, politically. I think Bush-aligned factions did, but not the party as a whole. I just think they want to do what they think will keep the largest number of people they know will vote for them happy whilst keeping their campaign funded. That said, the Dems are not a monolithic block. You need to look at each candidate pretty much always. All sweeping statements suck ;-)

"but Bush wasn't running again and he'd have starved the poor bastards to prove a point"
Which poor bastards?

"and that would have lost the democrats their phony ass jobs."
Which Democrats? Which jobs? Lost them to whom?

"McCain is the last piece of life left in the Empire."
Hardly. He's a walking corpse.

"Obama is not gonna say it, but we need someone to manage the end of the Empire without saying things that make your average American howl and scream."
You think "average Americans" (should such a thing exist outside the imagination of the beltway freaks) believe an American empire exists, let alone that it's falling apart?

"John McCain is a recipe for the end of the Earth."
Nah, just all human life.

"Read Russian military doctrine concerning the use of tactical nuclear strikes vs. American class weaponry in theatre. Obama has some pretty ruthless folks advising them but they know where the rubber meets the road regarding that matter. McCain has people [who] believe that this doctrine is simply a bunch of paper[,] bullshitting like they do[,] and they are 100% fucking wrong."
As Jonathan puts it: the sane and the insane evil people. You reckon the neocons want war with Russia?

"EM, Shut up and go away. You make no sense and you're annoying.
Posted by: Don Bacon at August 26, 2008 11:57 PM"

If he makes no sense to you, perhaps you should try to ask him what he means? If he isn't coherent at that point, then dismiss him. But at least try to understand what he means.